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Discussion Starter #1
Oh yeah... a nice gift called "reality" for the Chevy/GM/American car brand haters. Time really changes things, fellas:

"Chevrolet has more 2016 J.D. Power Dependability Awards than any other Brand. The Chevrolet Malibu, Equinox, Silverado HD and Camaro were recently awarded Most Dependable awards by J.D. Power, helping Chevrolet reach its best results ever."

Segment-leading models:

Malibu - “Most Dependable Midsize Car, Two Years in a Row”
Equinox – “Most Dependable Compact SUV”
Silverado HD – “Most Dependable Large Heavy Duty Pickup, Two Years in a Row”
Camaro – “Most Dependable Midsize Sporty Car, Four Years in a Row”

Gosh, that ZL1 is going to be a helluva awesome sports car. Exclusive and DEPENDABLE. :D
 

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All this talk about the ZL1, just built one on the Chevy website and will not doubt get a call from a dealer next week. Bright Red. Convertible. Considering trading my 2005 Jag XKR in on it.
 

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Oh yeah... a nice gift called "reality" for the Chevy/GM/American car brand haters. Time really changes things, fellas:

"Chevrolet has more 2016 J.D. Power Dependability Awards than any other Brand. The Chevrolet Malibu, Equinox, Silverado HD and Camaro were recently awarded Most Dependable awards by J.D. Power, helping Chevrolet reach its best results ever."

Segment-leading models:

Malibu - “Most Dependable Midsize Car, Two Years in a Row”
Equinox – “Most Dependable Compact SUV”
Silverado HD – “Most Dependable Large Heavy Duty Pickup, Two Years in a Row”
Camaro – “Most Dependable Midsize Sporty Car, Four Years in a Row”

Gosh, that ZL1 is going to be a helluva awesome sports car. Exclusive and DEPENDABLE. :D
Remember I said I didn't think it had anything to do with reliability... they could be the most dependable in the world. But the perception of GM is not very good right now after 124 people died in their cars because of a faulty ignition switch. Still a huge fan of the Camaro but I don't like the look of the Malibu or Equinox but good to see America bouncing back.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I'm not a fan of convertibles but that color red is even more interesting than the F-Pace IRR. The hardtop ZL1 will be awesome. They have two different reds, just like the F-Pace. The red in the photo is called "Red Hot" and it is.
 

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Love the wheel design. I personally think the coupe is better looking but its personal preference.
 

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I would venture to say that those who do not like convertibles have never owned one. . . . much like the critiques on this forum from those who do not own an F-Pace. There certainly can be some objective observations made when discriminating between the two, but take a twisty with the top down, wind in your hair, sun on your face, experiencing the surrounds in near 360 degree perfection, you will be sold on the convertible.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I would venture to say that those who do not like convertibles have never owned one. . . . much like the critiques on this forum from those who do not own an F-Pace. There certainly can be some objective observations made when discriminating between the two, but take a twisty with the top down, wind in your hair, sun on your face, experiencing the surrounds in near 360 degree perfection, you will be sold on the convertible.
I don't have any hair and the last thing I need is the sun in my face.

Coupe or convertible, the car is bada$$. I added on the 10-speed automatic, the performance recorder and display, and navigation, and got a price under 65K. This is a SUPERCAR for 65K. 650HP and 650 lb ft of torque. The Corvette Z06 engine. 3.5 seconds 0-60. Magnetic Ride Control. Beats anything out of Europe or Japan that costs less than 100K, and 95% of what's out there that is street legal for under 200K. And it has JD Power's Seal of Approval for Dependability. How do you pass on something like this? I suppose you pass if you don't have the money, which, at the moment, I do not. :(
 

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Oh yeah... a nice gift called "reality" for the Chevy/GM/American car brand haters. Time really changes things, fellas:

"Chevrolet has more 2016 J.D. Power Dependability Awards than any other Brand. The Chevrolet Malibu, Equinox, Silverado HD and Camaro were recently awarded Most Dependable awards by J.D. Power, helping Chevrolet reach its best results ever."

Segment-leading models:

Malibu - “Most Dependable Midsize Car, Two Years in a Row”
Equinox – “Most Dependable Compact SUV”
Silverado HD – “Most Dependable Large Heavy Duty Pickup, Two Years in a Row”
Camaro – “Most Dependable Midsize Sporty Car, Four Years in a Row”

Gosh, that ZL1 is going to be a helluva awesome sports car. Exclusive and DEPENDABLE. :D

Well mesh that with the latest recall totals available (2014) - oh about 29 MILLION in one year. Some I read elsewhere are actually hilarious, like Cadillacs built with the brakes installed on the wrong axles!
GM also has some of the lowest resale values in the business.
And here's Car & Driver's wrap up review of the chevy's crown jewel C7 vette. Wow - got to love grenading engines at 6000 miles !! What a piece of ****. C & D summed it up nicely "But the reality is that this Stingray failed spectacularly"
But you seem to love Garbage motors - order up that prestigious chevy - stop talking about it !

All the Cars GM Has Recalled This Year Would Wrap the Earth 4 Times
2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Z51 Manual ? Long-Term Test Wrap-Up ? Car and Driver
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Well mesh that with the latest recall totals available (2014) - oh about 29 MILLION in one year. Some I read elsewhere are actually hilarious, like Cadillacs built with the brakes installed on the wrong axles!
GM also has some of the lowest resale values in the business.
And here's Car & Driver's wrap up review of the chevy's crown jewel C7 vette. Wow - got to love grenading engines at 6000 miles !! What a piece of ****. C & D summed it up nicely "But the reality is that this Stingray failed spectacularly"
But you seem to love Garbage motors - order up that prestigious chevy - stop talking about it !

All the Cars GM Has Recalled This Year Would Wrap the Earth 4 Times
2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Z51 Manual ? Long-Term Test Wrap-Up ? Car and Driver
If Jaguar puts out a bad model does that make the F-Pace too much of a gamble? Not to people on this forum. Who cares about a three-year old Stingray? We're talking 2017 Camaro ZL1, JD Power's "most dependable." As for plush, the interior has more leather and suede than any F-Pace, probably more than any Jaguar. Where F-Pace has plastic, the Camaro ZL1 has leather and suede. See for yourself. Most complete review of the ZL1:

 

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Discussion Starter #11
Just realized the ZL1 comes with both Apple CarPlay and the Android version, too.
 

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If Jaguar puts out a bad model does that make the F-Pace too much of a gamble? Not to people on this forum. Who cares about a three-year old Stingray? We're talking 2017 Camaro ZL1, JD Power's "most dependable." As for plush, the interior has more leather and suede than any F-Pace, probably more than any Jaguar. Where F-Pace has plastic, the Camaro ZL1 has leather and suede. See for yourself. Most complete review of the ZL1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdOyRH92PVA
Who cares about about exploding corvette engines, dead starters, blown HVAC, leaking axle seals, defective airbags, junky shifters?? Shows the trash chevy spits out. Plus GM is famous for it's K-mart blue light special interiors.
Anyway I would buy a BMW M6 or AMG 63 coupe & have a beautifully engineered, German quality built, autobahn tested beauty with panache. Not some Detroit junkbox that will add to recalls stretching around the globe. And sure they cost more but you get what you pay for and:
" Would you rather drink beer from a paper cup or champagne from Waterford crystal"
 

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Trek, I get you pushing the point on reliability for GM in an other thread in less than 2 days, and i do agree with you like I stated in the other thread, the American manufacturers are improving their reliability quite a bit. However, as I stated in the other thread, i see the gap not as a reliability gap, but rather a refinement gap. I can't seem to find an American car that has the refinement of the European manufacturers (Jag included) or even some of the Japanese and Korean manufacturers.

The refinement gap does in some ways does relate fit and finish which can show in quality ratings, I think it has more to do with the materials used to finish the car, the attention to detail of those design items and most importantly how a car feels while driving it. Even the sounds a car makes while driving. Many people don't have the issues most of us have with rattles and squeaks in cars they drive. So that doesn't always show in Quality rankings like JD Power.

I can tell you I was set on buying a brand new Explorer over almost any other SUV due to the design and looks. However, I didn't like how the interior controls operated and I mostly didn't like how the car handled. The suspension bounced across most rough roads and the feel driving was a bit numb. It also did not feel anywhere as tight as the F-Pace does and it was making more noise with 4 miles on it than I thought it should. To me that is a lack in refinement.

I drove a 2015 Convertible Camaro SS while I was in Florida in November of last year for a week and while the car was fun to drive, I had a bunch of complaints on refinement. The top was not something I'd be happy dealing with every day. The truck was a mess with space for storage, much worse than my wife's BMW 428 xDrive which is also a Hardtop convertible. Controls were in spaces that made no sense and to be completely honest I was not very happy with the way it handled.

The engine and sound it made were sweet beyond belief, but the transmission also didn't shift as crisply as I would like, and if it was't for the engine drowning out the squeaks the convertible made i would have been going crazy. It was awful with the top up.

The problem with having a lack of refinement is that isn't something that a strong dealership or warrantee are going to help you with. Refinement needs to be designed in from the beginning and it is achieved with high attention to detail when manufacturing a car. Wrapping all wires in insulation when they are in areas that can cause rattles or creaks. Using screws over pop rivets to insure tight panels. Wrapping interior body panels with the appropriate materials to both deaden sound and make the interior more inviting.

To be honest this is something I believe Jag needs to improve a bit when compared to the likes of BNW or more importantly Mercedes. However, Jag is far ahead of most of the rest of the US manufacturers.
 

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I would venture to say that those who do not like convertibles have never owned one. . . . much like the critiques on this forum from those who do not own an F-Pace. There certainly can be some objective observations made when discriminating between the two, but take a twisty with the top down, wind in your hair, sun on your face, experiencing the surrounds in near 360 degree perfection, you will be sold on the convertible.
I agree that there is value in a convertible with the top down; However, that value is limited by how often that is practical. More importantly, ALL convertibles lose the structural integrity provided by a roof. As a result, they need significant reinforcement in the frame which results in a stiff non compliant ride in all conditions. Now some of the newer suspensions out there can help this, but none that I have driven can eliminate it.
 
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I agree that there is value in a convertible with the top down; However, that value is limited by how often that is practical. More importantly, ALL convertibles lose the structural integrity provided by a roof. As a result, they need significant reinforcement in the frame which results in a stiff non compliant ride in all conditions. Now some of the newer suspensions out there can help this, but none that I have driven can eliminate it.
So far I've been thrilled with the solidity and sound compliance of the BMW 428 Convertible hard top. I think it's also a convertible that looks as good with the top up as it does with the top down. The only thing I wish is that I could have found a white 435 xDrive for my wife. There were none to be found before I had to get the car for her birthday.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Trek, I get you pushing the point on reliability for GM in an other thread in less than 2 days, and i do agree with you like I stated in the other thread, the American manufacturers are improving their reliability quite a bit. However, as I stated in the other thread, i see the gap not as a reliability gap, but rather a refinement gap. I can't seem to find an American car that has the refinement of the European manufacturers (Jag included) or even some of the Japanese and Korean manufacturers.

The refinement gap does in some ways does relate fit and finish which can show in quality ratings, I think it has more to do with the materials used to finish the car, the attention to detail of those design items and most importantly how a car feels while driving it. Even the sounds a car makes while driving. Many people don't have the issues most of us have with rattles and squeaks in cars they drive. So that doesn't always show in Quality rankings like JD Power.

I can tell you I was set on buying a brand new Explorer over almost any other SUV due to the design and looks. However, I didn't like how the interior controls operated and I mostly didn't like how the car handled. The suspension bounced across most rough roads and the feel driving was a bit numb. It also did not feel anywhere as tight as the F-Pace does and it was making more noise with 4 miles on it than I thought it should. To me that is a lack in refinement.

I drove a 2015 Convertible Camaro SS while I was in Florida in November of last year for a week and while the car was fun to drive, I had a bunch of complaints on refinement. The top was not something I'd be happy dealing with every day. The truck was a mess with space for storage, much worse than my wife's BMW 428 xDrive which is also a Hardtop convertible. Controls were in spaces that made no sense and to be completely honest I was not very happy with the way it handled.

The engine and sound it made were sweet beyond belief, but the transmission also didn't shift as crisply as I would like, and if it was't for the engine drowning out the squeaks the convertible made i would have been going crazy. It was awful with the top up.

The problem with having a lack of refinement is that isn't something that a strong dealership or warrantee are going to help you with. Refinement needs to be designed in from the beginning and it is achieved with high attention to detail when manufacturing a car. Wrapping all wires in insulation when they are in areas that can cause rattles or creaks. Using screws over pop rivets to insure tight panels. Wrapping interior body panels with the appropriate materials to both deaden sound and make the interior more inviting.

To be honest this is something I believe Jag needs to improve a bit when compared to the likes of BNW or more importantly Mercedes. However, Jag is far ahead of most of the rest of the US manufacturers.
I have never had an American brand car that was the bag of bolts I experienced with two out of three Disco Sports I've had as loaners in 2016. One of them had only 4 miles on it, so I was the first to drive it. It seemed to rattle from every seam and joint. Not to mention our very own first off the assembly line F-Paces until the problems were fixed. My wife's 2012 GMC Acadia Denali now has 44K miles and it rides as smooth and quiet as anything I've owned from Acura and Lexus. Where American brands scare me is with the drivetrains and transmissions but most of them now come with 100K warranties on those parts. Maybe my wife's SUV is different because it is the Denali version, the top-of-the-line version of the Acadia with bigger tires and a different suspension and exhaust than the base Acadia. But I don't see any difference between it and a base X5 of the same year as far as refinement goes.

I just don't worship at the altar of "German engineering." I think BMW became complacent in the last few years with their 3 and 5 series sedans and SUVs that don't have "M" assigned to them. I don't see the 3 and 5 series as anything special, and definitely inferior to Lexus. I think some of the BMW and MB worship is reputational bias. The same with persistent negative attitudes toward American brands. Bias can be for or against but it is definitely reputational.
 

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I have never had an American brand car that was the bag of bolts I experienced with two out of three Disco Sports I've had as loaners in 2016. One of them had only 4 miles on it, so I was the first to drive it. It seemed to rattle from every seam and joint. Not to mention our very own first off the assembly line F-Paces until the problems were fixed. My wife's 2012 GMC Acadia Denali now has 44K miles and it rides as smooth and quiet as anything I've owned from Acura and Lexus. Where American brands scare me is with the drivetrains and transmissions but most of them now come with 100K warranties on those parts. Maybe my wife's SUV is different because it is the Denali version, the top-of-the-line version of the Acadia with bigger tires and a different suspension and exhaust than the base Acadia. But I don't see any difference between it and a base X5 of the same year as far as refinement goes.

I just don't worship at the altar of "German engineering." I think BMW became complacent in the last few years with their 3 and 5 series sedans and SUVs that don't have "M" assigned to them. I don't see the 3 and 5 series as anything special, and definitely inferior to Lexus. I think some of the BMW and MB worship is reputational bias. The same with persistent negative attitudes toward American brands. Bias can be for or against but it is definitely reputational.
Trek just "Literally" took you all to Church , on that one !!! >:)

And I can't think of anyone Better to Preach the Sermon !!! ;)

AMEN to that , Brother Trek !!!
 
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Haha have to agree with you on the bucket of bolts that are the lower end LR products.
 

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Oh my gosh, I'm not a Disco Sport fan either... and I don't think you guys get what I mean by "refinement". We will save this till the spring F-Pace meeting up so we can have some solid "in-person" debates! :)
 
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By the way here is my full list of vehicles if you think I'm purely against American. I'm not, I've had my share over the years.

1965 Mercury Comet, 1966 Rambler American, 1970 Ford Maverick, 1969 Ford Mustang (nothing special was a project car I never got done), 1977 Ford Thunderbird (loved this one quite a bit), 1982 Ford Escort GT, 1986 Ford Taurus MT5, 1969 Ford Mustang Convertible fully restored (won some trophies with this one, then let the wife take it in the divorce since it was really a gift to her - I should have been shot, there is a story for this one for the meet as well), 1990 Honda Accord (one of the first built in Marysville) but probably not really american, 1994 Mustang GT Convertible, 1995 Chevy Silverado Extended Cab, 1998 Ford Expedition. I kept the Expedition for quite a few years while I had the 2002 TL below. My brother-in-Law worked for Honda from about 1985 on so that's when you start to see me swaying to Honda brand vehicles. What completely pulled me away was the refinement that I saw in the 2006 Infiniti M45 over the American offerings at the time. I've since looked seriously at the GMC Acadia Denali when we bought the Q7 and that was a very close decision. In retrospect, I think we should have gone with the Denali. I also was dead set on the Explorer as I stated above before I found the F-Pace. So I'm not against American and I do believe the quality is there. What's missing is refinement and maybe the new Caddy V's will have it, or the next Explorer.

Oh and I can't wait on the Ford comments after you guys read this list and say that is why I'm against american... :)
 
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