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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Anyone else thinking about a 2017 Camaro ZL! ten speed? This bad boy can take out a Vette Stingray, Vette Grandsport, or an F-Type all the way up to the R. And only a car length behind an F-Type SVR and a Vette Z06. All for only 65K. I've never seen a red color like the one in the article. It is breathtakingly beautiful. One of these in red, yellow or black would look amazing in my garage right next to the F-Pace. Gee, which one should I drive today? The ZL1 is going to be extremely rare not ubiquitous like the Camaro SS or the base models. Something like a limit of 3 per dealer. The 10-speed automatic is quicker than the six-speed manual which most people will buy. I'd go for the ten-speed auto which will be even more rare.

2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 Photos and Info ? News ? Car and Driver
 

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I do not buy American vehicles. I learned my final lesson with my 1997 C5 Vette. Renting American vehicles periodically solidifies my anti-American vehicle sentiments. Yes, may of them look great and many of them are very fast, but in the end I do not believe the quality is near what almost all the foreign makes offer. JMHO.
 

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Anyone else thinking about a 2017 Camaro ZL! ten speed? This bad boy can take out a Vette Stingray, Vette Grandsport, or an F-Type all the way up to the R. And only a car length behind an F-Type SVR and a Vette Z06. All for only 65K. I've never seen a red color like the one in the article. It is breathtakingly beautiful. One of these in red, yellow or black would look amazing in my garage right next to the F-Pace. Gee, which one should I drive today? The ZL1 is going to be extremely rare not ubiquitous like the Camaro SS or the base models. Something like a limit of 3 per dealer. The 10-speed automatic is quicker than the six-speed manual which most people will buy. I'd go for the ten-speed auto which will be even more rare.

2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 Photos and Info ? News ? Car and Driver
Love the new Camaro, but like MGluck im not really a fan of any American companies. I think everything in Fords lineup, Chevrolets lineup and Dodges lineup is terrible looking besides the mustang, camaro, corvette, challenger and charger. All of their other cars are just terrible looking.
 

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I am with MGluck 100% on this. I would not buy a American car under any circumstances. Quality & workmanship are not there. And the taxpayer bailouts of bankrupt crappy GM & Chrysler were outrageous.
 

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I love the look of the new Camaro as well. Very aggressive lines and some great potent power. However, I won't say that I don't like American quality since I do believe it has improved, but I still think we have a way to go when competing on refinement, if you get where I'm coming from there.
 
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I love the look of the new Camaro as well. Very aggressive lines and some great potent power. However, I won't say that I don't like American quality since I do believe it has improved, but I still think we have a way to go when competing on refinement, if you get where I'm coming from there.
Completely agree!
 

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Quality is way up since 97 with all makes and American cars now do well depending on the brand, objective numbers do not lie. What's more is that American cars are starting to get the subjectives right. An SS Camaro is a delight to drive, test it yourself folks, it bested the M4 in the MT comparo for a reason. Honestly folks, drive the thing. You still want to bash it then go ahead but I don't think you will. You're going to walk away a believer.
 

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GM is a bottom feeder company as far as I am concerned. Look how they handled the scandal with the defective ignition switches that killed over 100 people. Investigation revealed the scumbags made the the replacement switch with the EXACT SAME PART NUMBER as the original cheap junk switch to try to conceal their criminal activities. I actively discourage people from buying GM garbage. Recently talked a neighbor out of a GMC SUV into a 4 Runner & he could not be happier.
 

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Anyone else thinking about a 2017 Camaro ZL! ten speed? This bad boy can take out a Vette Stingray, Vette Grandsport, or an F-Type all the way up to the R. And only a car length behind an F-Type SVR and a Vette Z06. All for only 65K. I've never seen a red color like the one in the article. It is breathtakingly beautiful. One of these in red, yellow or black would look amazing in my garage right next to the F-Pace. Gee, which one should I drive today? The ZL1 is going to be extremely rare not ubiquitous like the Camaro SS or the base models. Something like a limit of 3 per dealer. The 10-speed automatic is quicker than the six-speed manual which most people will buy. I'd go for the ten-speed auto which will be even more rare.

2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 Photos and Info ? News ? Car and Driver
Trek: You won't be happy 'til this is in your garage:
 

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Quality is way up since 97 with all makes and American cars now do well depending on the brand, objective numbers do not lie. What's more is that American cars are starting to get the subjectives right. An SS Camaro is a delight to drive, test it yourself folks, it bested the M4 in the MT comparo for a reason. Honestly folks, drive the thing. You still want to bash it then go ahead but I don't think you will. You're going to walk away a believer.
No one is bashing the Camaro, in fact quite the opposite. Maybe you confused the distaste for American made cars with the distaste of the Camaro..? I for one love the new camaro, looks aggressive and has a powerhouse of an engine; but its not from Europe or Japan or South Korea... its from America :|
 

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I grew up back when America made the good cars. In between then and now were a lot of dark years and cars I'm ashamed to say were produced from my country. I get it. Times have changed, many American cars have quality that equals or exceeds the various imports. Again, numbers don't lie. It takes a long time for peoples perceptions to change and they haven't caught up with the reality, American cars are not garbage anymore. Some are better and some worse but the match up with their price point competitors from overseas finds them holding their own just fine.

I think some of you folks should go overseas and see what 30k buys you at MB or one of the other German brands. You're going to see some mighty cheap plastic and a lot of other things that might surprise you. However that might be I don't have anything more to add here and I can do little further other than reiterate what I already said again so I'm leave the last word to you gents. Your slaps upside the noggin will be duly noted. :)
 

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You cannot judge quality by units sold. That is a false assumption. To be clear, I do not believe American cars are crap...they are simply crappier than virtually any import.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Wow. Some powerful hatred for stuff from the good ol' US of A. Where's the patriotism? It is true that all but one of my last several cars have been foreign brands, but I did buy my wife a 2012 GMC Acadia Denali that as been an excellent car with no breakdowns or major repairs in four years. Most of all, she loves the vehicle and is reluctant to give up such a good car for a Volvo SC 90 SUV, which might not be as good.

I grew up on Chevrolet. '63 Nova (It was 10 years old when I got it for $250); '67 Malibu (7 years old when I got it for $500); '79 Monte Carlo (my first new car post college); '88 Z24 (last bachelor car before getting married). I loved those cars. The great thing about Chevys is they were easy to repair on your own. I spent many a weekend under the hood adjusting timing belts and such, changing my own plugs, doing my own oil changes. Chevys didn't have computers until the late '80s . Actually, they didn't really have computers at that time. Some had computer chips, like my Z24. The good old days. I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood where no one went to college until my older brother broke tradition. Irish-American police detective on one side; Italian-American war veteran and his wife on the other. We shared a driveway and backyards without grass. It was a lunch bucket type neighborhood. The people with the "good jobs" worked at the post office. Everybody drove American.

I still have a soft place in my heart for those days when everybody worked shifts, went to church on Sunday, helped their elderly neighbors, kept their kids in line, and drove American cars. That Camaro ZL1 is going to be something special.
 

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Sorry patriotism only goes so far. Buying a big ticket item like vehicle is not like a tool set or toaster, I'm going to get the best I can for the outlay.Take a look at the sheer number of recalls for GM & Chrysler. Millions in just the past couple years. Look at resale/depreciation and service satisfaction. And no modern vehicle lends itself to much self maintenance today. I also think it's a matter of mindset, look at the fit finish of American vs German or Japanese, no comparison. Reminds me of the statement of former CEO/president Alfred Sloan of GM - He is credited with saying "General Motors is not in the business of making cars. It is in the business of making money."


Enough said
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Sorry patriotism only goes so far. Buying a big ticket item like vehicle is not like a tool set or toaster, I'm going to get the best I can for the outlay.Take a look at the sheer number of recalls for GM & Chrysler. Millions in just the past couple years. Look at resale/depreciation and service satisfaction. And no modern vehicle lends itself to much self maintenance today. I also think it's a matter of mindset, look at the fit finish of American vs German or Japanese, no comparison. Reminds me of the statement of former CEO/president Alfred Sloan of GM - He is credited with saying "General Motors is not in the business of making cars. It is in the business of making money."


Enough said
What corporation is in the business of losing money? Dude, the German and Japanese car manufacturers are in the same business as GM. Jaguar (or Tata) is in the same business. Why do you think Jaguar went the SUV/CUV route with the F-Pace? To make money. What's the difference? Quality, in some cases, but the motive is identical no matter where you go.
 

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Soon Trump will have it that you'll only be able to buy American:eek:
Good luck with that>:)
Hey Waynem2 , You So Silly ! You will still be able to buy your *Jaguars* and *BMWs* and *MBs* and *Toyotas* and *Nissans* and *Hyundais* and *Hondas* !!!
They will just be *BUILT in AMERICA* !!! >:)
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Soon Trump will have it that you'll only be able to buy American:eek:
Good luck with that>:)
Globalization has hurt the American economy and some American workers in obvious ways, but it has also helped the American economy and American consumers. Look at how many "foreign" cars are actually manufactured in the US by American workers? That is just one of the positive examples of globalization. And the availability of competitive goods (like cars) at reasonable prices helps American consumers and forces American competitors to raise the quality of their goods like the Camaro ZL1. We Americans get the best JLR has to offer when it comes to the F-Pace. The First Edition F-Pace comes at a lower price and with more options standard than the First Edition in England. That is a benefit of globalization. Nationalist movements in the UK, France, Germany, the US, etc., only work to kill competition, reduce quality, and ultimately hurt the economies of those same countries. Want to partner with Russia? Who in America would be stupid enough to buy a POS Russian car? What does Russia produce that the rest of the world wants to buy? Vodka and caviar? That's it? Who buys that sh*t? Enough said.

I'm agreeing with you, Wayne. ;)
 

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What corporation is in the business of losing money? Dude, the German and Japanese car manufacturers are in the same business as GM. Jaguar (or Tata) is in the same business. Why do you think Jaguar went the SUV/CUV route with the F-Pace? To make money. What's the difference? Quality, in some cases, but the motive is identical no matter where you go.
Dude,

Your missing the point - it's the corporate mentality, the culture. GM does not give a dam about the product, or customers, just profits. How many crappy units can they churn out while battling the union hacks.How can they beat down the suppliers to shave a few cents of a part & make a cheap part cheaper.

Give you a example. Do a search for videos of corvette assembly in Bowling Green. There is one showing the C7 being made. Look closely. The workers are grubby or beer belly, greasy pony tail long hair wearing dirty AC/DC t shirts or middle age haggy women looking uninterested.

Contrast that to what I have seen in person touring the Benz , BMW & Porsche factories in Germany. Young, fit clean cut workers, all dressed in neat corporate uniforms or overalls in spotless working conditions. Big deal you may say? Ask the military about appearance & discipline. I stood outside the Porsche plant in Stuttgart as each 911 came off the line, right to a on ramp to the Autobahn for a test drive,. Contrast that to the plastic chevy - off the line onto a car carrier. Japanese as well. Look up Infiniti or Lexus videos. Work ethic worlds apart from the UAW. Quality is what it is all about, not a afterthought.
 

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Globalization has hurt the American economy and some American workers in obvious ways, but it has also helped the American economy and American consumers. Look at how many "foreign" cars are actually manufactured in the US by American workers? That is just one of the positive examples of globalization. And the availability of competitive goods (like cars) at reasonable prices helps American consumers and forces American competitors to raise the quality of their goods like the Camaro ZL1. We Americans get the best JLR has to offer when it comes to the F-Pace. The First Edition F-Pace comes at a lower price and with more options standard than the First Edition in England. That is a benefit of globalization. Nationalist movements in the UK, France, Germany, the US, etc., only work to kill competition, reduce quality, and ultimately hurt the economies of those same countries. Want to partner with Russia? Who in America would be stupid enough to buy a POS Russian car? What does Russia produce that the rest of the world wants to buy? Vodka and caviar? That's it? Who buys that sh*t? Enough said.


Foreign cars made in the USA, you say a good thing, I say no. Research the big Toyota recalls a few years back. If you look into the data, about 95% of the recalled Toyota vehicles from the USA were USA built models. No coincidence to me. I will only buy Japanese vehicles built in Japan. Enough said.
 
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